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	<title>Comments on: Some caveats to &#8220;It&#8217;s not just the OPACS that suck&#8221; by Meredith</title>
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	<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/</link>
	<description>was Off the Mark</description>
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		<title>By: Another semester shaping up &#124; Off the Mark</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1958</link>
		<dc:creator>Another semester shaping up &#124; Off the Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 15:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1958</guid>
		<description>[...] Our &#8220;textbook&#8221; is Morville&#8217;s Ambient Findability, which in my experience wasn&#8217;t all that findable. The other, optional, text is Svenonius. Thankfully! [see above for Svenonius link.] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Our &#8220;textbook&#8221; is Morville&#8217;s Ambient Findability, which in my experience wasn&#8217;t all that findable. The other, optional, text is Svenonius. Thankfully! [see above for Svenonius link.] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1852</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1852</guid>
		<description>Hi annette.  I do agree that browsing can be therapeutic and/or fun, but as you say we often want a known item.

Other than displays involving a small number of books for a special event or holiday, having books all over as if the library was a bookstore sounds downright ludicrous.  Having a librarian (routinely) say, “now I know I saw that one, where is it?”  sounds like a complete abdication of some of our professional responsibilities has taken place in your library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi annette.  I do agree that browsing can be therapeutic and/or fun, but as you say we often want a known item.</p>
<p>Other than displays involving a small number of books for a special event or holiday, having books all over as if the library was a bookstore sounds downright ludicrous.  Having a librarian (routinely) say, “now I know I saw that one, where is it?”  sounds like a complete abdication of some of our professional responsibilities has taken place in your library.</p>
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		<title>By: annette</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1831</link>
		<dc:creator>annette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1831</guid>
		<description>I could not agree more - I generally cannot find what I need in my local bookstores, because so many items are displayed &#039;attractively&#039; rather than in some sort of organization that means anything to me.  Browsing is fun and can be theraputic, but sometimes you just need what you need and let&#039;s get out of here.

But the really bad news for me is that my local library thinks this a a good thing, and has started to display books &#039;face out&#039; on top of shelves, on random tables, on moveable carts, anywhere they can get the cover art at eye level.  Which means that even if the books ARE in the library building, there is a good chance that they are not on the shelf where they are supposed to be.  I wind up hunting down a librarian who will say something like, &quot;now I know I saw that one, where is it?&quot; and begin hunting around the stacks looking, literally, high and low for the requested title.    

Maybe a good application for RFID, but not particularly helpful for patrons who actually know what they are looking for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could not agree more &#8211; I generally cannot find what I need in my local bookstores, because so many items are displayed &#8216;attractively&#8217; rather than in some sort of organization that means anything to me.  Browsing is fun and can be theraputic, but sometimes you just need what you need and let&#8217;s get out of here.</p>
<p>But the really bad news for me is that my local library thinks this a a good thing, and has started to display books &#8216;face out&#8217; on top of shelves, on random tables, on moveable carts, anywhere they can get the cover art at eye level.  Which means that even if the books ARE in the library building, there is a good chance that they are not on the shelf where they are supposed to be.  I wind up hunting down a librarian who will say something like, &#8220;now I know I saw that one, where is it?&#8221; and begin hunting around the stacks looking, literally, high and low for the requested title.    </p>
<p>Maybe a good application for RFID, but not particularly helpful for patrons who actually know what they are looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1779</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 02:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1779</guid>
		<description>Hi Thomas and thanks for the comment.

I am unsure whether you meant to disagree with or support my point, but I&#039;m going to take it as an excellent added reason to support my concern over the bookstore-library analogy.  In fact, it was something that I was alluding to.  

Bookstores are in business to sell us stuff.  Do they really care what specific stuff it is?  Nope.  Not at all.  As long as we buy stuff from them they are happy.  Or as you said, as long as we buy 5 &quot;stuffs&quot; from them they are happy.

N.B.  I am using the highly technical term &quot;stuff&quot; and its plural, &quot;stuffs,&quot; to represent the kinds of content objects and assorted paraphernalia that bookstores sell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Thomas and thanks for the comment.</p>
<p>I am unsure whether you meant to disagree with or support my point, but I&#8217;m going to take it as an excellent added reason to support my concern over the bookstore-library analogy.  In fact, it was something that I was alluding to.  </p>
<p>Bookstores are in business to sell us stuff.  Do they really care what specific stuff it is?  Nope.  Not at all.  As long as we buy stuff from them they are happy.  Or as you said, as long as we buy 5 &#8220;stuffs&#8221; from them they are happy.</p>
<p>N.B.  I am using the highly technical term &#8220;stuff&#8221; and its plural, &#8220;stuffs,&#8221; to represent the kinds of content objects and assorted paraphernalia that bookstores sell.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1777</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 02:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1777</guid>
		<description>Bookstores are not organized for finding specific books. When I was young, I worked in a big bookstore, and I figured out one day (when I was  getting frustrated trying to put new books on  the shelves) that the plan in the big bookstore is not to help you find the book you&#039;re looking for, but to help you find 5 other books that you really want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bookstores are not organized for finding specific books. When I was young, I worked in a big bookstore, and I figured out one day (when I was  getting frustrated trying to put new books on  the shelves) that the plan in the big bookstore is not to help you find the book you&#8217;re looking for, but to help you find 5 other books that you really want.</p>
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		<title>By: Information Wants To Be Free &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Keeping it real</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1763</link>
		<dc:creator>Information Wants To Be Free &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Keeping it real</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 03:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1763</guid>
		<description>[...] I love that something I wrote last week about user experience in libraries generated this terrific post from Mark Linder. While we largely do agree on things, he didn&#8217;t just nod his head. He really made the topic his own and focused on user experience in bookstores and libraries from his perspective as a customer and budding cataloger. It was a terrific post and he didn&#8217;t need any of those &#8220;it&#8217;s not that I disagree with Meredith but&#8221; caveats. It&#8217;s great to see some dissent in the blogosphere as long as it doesn&#8217;t get personal or mean. I have always enjoyed Mark&#8217;s unique take on things; he brings a truly unique and useful perspective to the blogosphere. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I love that something I wrote last week about user experience in libraries generated this terrific post from Mark Linder. While we largely do agree on things, he didn&#8217;t just nod his head. He really made the topic his own and focused on user experience in bookstores and libraries from his perspective as a customer and budding cataloger. It was a terrific post and he didn&#8217;t need any of those &#8220;it&#8217;s not that I disagree with Meredith but&#8221; caveats. It&#8217;s great to see some dissent in the blogosphere as long as it doesn&#8217;t get personal or mean. I have always enjoyed Mark&#8217;s unique take on things; he brings a truly unique and useful perspective to the blogosphere. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1687</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 22:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1687</guid>
		<description>Nice questions that you raise, Jennifer.  We do need to differentiate between browsing and finding, and the variations within each, and we also need to support (cater to) them.  

I also believe there&#039;s a third (or 5th, counting classically) objective, that of navigation--as per Svenonius--that needs to be supported.  And if anyone objects to me slipping &quot;objectives of the catalog&quot; in here, then, fine.  Forget the catalog reference. 

I am speaking of ways of navigating the world purposefully, and there are at least three: browsing, finding, and navigating.  These apply to the &quot;world of information&quot; and to the wider world.

Jennifer asks great beginning questions: &quot;Which one is more important? Which one should we cater to? Can we cater to both? How do we balance the two behaviors in order to provide the best service possible to our constituents?&quot;  I would only widen the scope of what we are looking at by a bit first.

And I fully agree with Jennifer that we can learn a lot &quot;from places in which people enjoy spending time,&quot; which is one reason I support Meredith&#039;s use of the analogy.

I know I certainly naturally feel more or less welcome in any specific bookstore or library.  Often the why or why not is never even considered; I either feel comfortable or not, and I go back or don&#039;t.  I am glad we have people who want to understand these behaviors (and, hopefully the reasons behind them).

And wide variation was another of the points I was trying to make, whether or not I suspect myself of being a valid data point or not. Another way to say this maybe, is beware the research of people trying to sell you stuff.  To sell you must pick a market; is their market our market?

Thanks for the great comments, Jennifer!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice questions that you raise, Jennifer.  We do need to differentiate between browsing and finding, and the variations within each, and we also need to support (cater to) them.  </p>
<p>I also believe there&#8217;s a third (or 5th, counting classically) objective, that of navigation&#8211;as per Svenonius&#8211;that needs to be supported.  And if anyone objects to me slipping &#8220;objectives of the catalog&#8221; in here, then, fine.  Forget the catalog reference. </p>
<p>I am speaking of ways of navigating the world purposefully, and there are at least three: browsing, finding, and navigating.  These apply to the &#8220;world of information&#8221; and to the wider world.</p>
<p>Jennifer asks great beginning questions: &#8220;Which one is more important? Which one should we cater to? Can we cater to both? How do we balance the two behaviors in order to provide the best service possible to our constituents?&#8221;  I would only widen the scope of what we are looking at by a bit first.</p>
<p>And I fully agree with Jennifer that we can learn a lot &#8220;from places in which people enjoy spending time,&#8221; which is one reason I support Meredith&#8217;s use of the analogy.</p>
<p>I know I certainly naturally feel more or less welcome in any specific bookstore or library.  Often the why or why not is never even considered; I either feel comfortable or not, and I go back or don&#8217;t.  I am glad we have people who want to understand these behaviors (and, hopefully the reasons behind them).</p>
<p>And wide variation was another of the points I was trying to make, whether or not I suspect myself of being a valid data point or not. Another way to say this maybe, is beware the research of people trying to sell you stuff.  To sell you must pick a market; is their market our market?</p>
<p>Thanks for the great comments, Jennifer!</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Macaulay</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1686</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Macaulay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 22:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1686</guid>
		<description>Mark, I think that the issue you raise is an important one. You point out that browsing for something you might be looking for and finding something specific that you want are two very different behaviors - that require very different strategies. Libraries are definitely not bookstores - and shouldn&#039;t try to be bookstores.  Yet people go to bookstores and libraries expecting (at different times perhaps) to be able to both browse and find. Which one is more important? Which one should we cater to? Can we cater to both? How do we balance the two behaviors in order to provide the best service possible to our constituents? Do people have better overall impressions of bookstores than they do of libraries? If so, I think we can learn something from places in which people enjoy spending time. But then again, I&#039;m willing to bet that people&#039;s experiences with bookstores and libraries vary widely.

I also tend to get very irritated with finding specific books in bookstores . I agree that their subject groupings often leave quite a bit to be desired - and leave me frustrated. Putting books in the What&#039;s New section, but not in their proper subject area is something that drives me insane. I absolutely hate the prospect of asking for assistance. If I can&#039;t find something specific, I am way more apt to buy it online (and yes, it is often cheaper that way).

I agree that this is worth a conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I think that the issue you raise is an important one. You point out that browsing for something you might be looking for and finding something specific that you want are two very different behaviors &#8211; that require very different strategies. Libraries are definitely not bookstores &#8211; and shouldn&#8217;t try to be bookstores.  Yet people go to bookstores and libraries expecting (at different times perhaps) to be able to both browse and find. Which one is more important? Which one should we cater to? Can we cater to both? How do we balance the two behaviors in order to provide the best service possible to our constituents? Do people have better overall impressions of bookstores than they do of libraries? If so, I think we can learn something from places in which people enjoy spending time. But then again, I&#8217;m willing to bet that people&#8217;s experiences with bookstores and libraries vary widely.</p>
<p>I also tend to get very irritated with finding specific books in bookstores . I agree that their subject groupings often leave quite a bit to be desired &#8211; and leave me frustrated. Putting books in the What&#8217;s New section, but not in their proper subject area is something that drives me insane. I absolutely hate the prospect of asking for assistance. If I can&#8217;t find something specific, I am way more apt to buy it online (and yes, it is often cheaper that way).</p>
<p>I agree that this is worth a conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1685</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 19:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1685</guid>
		<description>Very true, Iris. That is why I early on said &quot;big chain stores.&quot;  

I was thinking about how I do navigate far better in smaller, independent bookstores, new or used, which have their differences, too.  I can generally navigate quite well in a used bookstore, even one of decent size.  

I guess one way to put it is that I do not like to browse when I want to find.  To me they are different objectives.  I may be browsing to find (via serendipity or directed &quot;luck&quot;) but I may just be browsing.  When I know what I want (know item search) then I want to find via find, and not via browse.  For me, large bookstore &quot;book classification&quot; and arrangement does not work for me when I have find qua find as an objective.

We do quite a lot of analogical thinking, so much so that teasing apart our analogies can be a very difficult thing.  Unfortunately, much of our stereotyping, biasing, classifications, and other discriminators are based almost wholly on (usually unchallenged) analogies.

You seem to have a good attitude towards learning via analogy.  I wish more of us did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true, Iris. That is why I early on said &#8220;big chain stores.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I was thinking about how I do navigate far better in smaller, independent bookstores, new or used, which have their differences, too.  I can generally navigate quite well in a used bookstore, even one of decent size.  </p>
<p>I guess one way to put it is that I do not like to browse when I want to find.  To me they are different objectives.  I may be browsing to find (via serendipity or directed &#8220;luck&#8221;) but I may just be browsing.  When I know what I want (know item search) then I want to find via find, and not via browse.  For me, large bookstore &#8220;book classification&#8221; and arrangement does not work for me when I have find qua find as an objective.</p>
<p>We do quite a lot of analogical thinking, so much so that teasing apart our analogies can be a very difficult thing.  Unfortunately, much of our stereotyping, biasing, classifications, and other discriminators are based almost wholly on (usually unchallenged) analogies.</p>
<p>You seem to have a good attitude towards learning via analogy.  I wish more of us did.</p>
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		<title>By: Iris</title>
		<link>http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/comment-page-1/#comment-1684</link>
		<dc:creator>Iris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jan 2007 19:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marklindner.info/blog/2007/01/01/some-caveats-to-its-not-just-the-opacs-that-suck-by-meredith/#comment-1684</guid>
		<description>I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that shopping in a &quot;big box book store&quot; is analogous to using a library but only to a point.  One further nuance to add to the discussion is that not all bookstores are &quot;big box&quot; book stores.  I worked for many years in a small, independent book store, and it was much more analogous to a small public library than the local big box store was. (And I think the analogies work differently when comparing bookstores to public and academic libraries.)

When I worked in this small bookstore, we had our regulars and I would set aside books as we received them knowing that one or another of my regulars would want to see them, and we spent a lot of energy tailoring the inventory for our community.  In fact, I left the store when a manager came who had worked in a big box and who wanted to make this store like his old stores.  He was later fired because sales dropped so dramatically...

But at the same time, you&#039;re very right: a collection is not the same as an inventory.  Luckily, my favorite part of learning by analogy is that they help you figure out what&#039;s the same, what&#039;s different, and what you can reinvent to make work for you.   They don&#039;t work nearly as well if you just take them, swallow them, and apply them without testing them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that shopping in a &#8220;big box book store&#8221; is analogous to using a library but only to a point.  One further nuance to add to the discussion is that not all bookstores are &#8220;big box&#8221; book stores.  I worked for many years in a small, independent book store, and it was much more analogous to a small public library than the local big box store was. (And I think the analogies work differently when comparing bookstores to public and academic libraries.)</p>
<p>When I worked in this small bookstore, we had our regulars and I would set aside books as we received them knowing that one or another of my regulars would want to see them, and we spent a lot of energy tailoring the inventory for our community.  In fact, I left the store when a manager came who had worked in a big box and who wanted to make this store like his old stores.  He was later fired because sales dropped so dramatically&#8230;</p>
<p>But at the same time, you&#8217;re very right: a collection is not the same as an inventory.  Luckily, my favorite part of learning by analogy is that they help you figure out what&#8217;s the same, what&#8217;s different, and what you can reinvent to make work for you.   They don&#8217;t work nearly as well if you just take them, swallow them, and apply them without testing them.</p>
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